G. Edward Griffin interviews ex-KGB soviet defector Yuri Bezmenov on the 4 step program of demoralization, destabilization, crisis, and normalization used by the KGB to subvert nations. This interview was conducted in 1985. Yuri Bezmenov explains why people cannot recognize truth when presented to them and why America has difficulty resisting a Socialist agenda.
Ed Griffin: – Our conversation is with Yuri Alexandrovic Bezmenov. Mr. Bezmenov was born in 1939 in a suburb of Moscow. He was the son of a high ranking Soviet Army officer. He was educated in the elite schools inside the Soviet Union; and became an expert in Indian culture and Indian languages.
He had an outstanding career with Novosti, which was, and still is, I should say, the press arm or press agency of the Soviet Union; it turns out this is also a front, for the KGB.
He escaped to the West in 1970 after becoming totally disgusted with the Soviet system; and he did this at great risk to his life. He certainly is one of the worlds outstanding experts on the subject of Soviet propaganda; and disinformation and active measures.
Well, you spoke before about „ideological subversion” and that’s a phrase that I’m afraid some Americans don’t understand. When the Soviets use the phrase „ideological subversion” what do they mean by it?
Yuri Bezmenov: – Ideological subversion is the process which is [a] legitimate, old word, and open. You can see it with your own eyes. All American mass media has to do is to „unplug bananas” from their ears, open up their eyes, and they can see it. There is no mystery. It has nothing to do with espionage. I know that espionage intelligence gathering looks more romantic. It sells more deodorants through the advertising. That’s probably why your Hollywood producers are so crazy about James Bond types of films. But in reality the main emphasis of the KGB is NOT in the area of intelligence at all. According to my opinion, and the opinions of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion, active measures, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is: to change the perception of reality of every American that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country.
It’s a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages.
The first stage being „demoralization”. It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years required to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy exposed to the ideology of [their] enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least 3 generation of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism; American patriotism. Most of the activity of the department [KGB] was to compile huge amount/volume of information, on individuals who were instrumental in creating public opinion. Publishers, editors, journalists, uh actors, educationalists, professors of political science. Members of parliament, representatives of business circles. Most of these people were divided roughly into two groups: those who would tow the Soviet foreign policy, they would be promoted to positions of power through media and public manipulation; [and] those who refuse the Soviet influence in their own country would be character assassinated OR executed physically, come Revolution. Same way as in a small town of Hua in South Vietnam; several thousands of Vietnamese were executed in one night when the city was captured by [the] Viet Cong for only two days; and American CIA could never figure out – how could [the communists] possibly know each Individual, where he lives, where to get him; and [in order that they] would be arrested in one night basically in four hours before dawn, put on a van, driven out of the city limits and shot.
The answer is very simple. Long before communists occupy the city, there was extensive network of informers; local Vietnamese citizens who knew absolutely everything about people who are instrumental in public opinion – including Barbers and Taxi Drivers. Everyone who was sympathetic to United States was executed. Same thing was done under the guidance of the Soviet Embassy in Hanoi, and same thing I was doing in New Delhi. To my horror, I discovered that in the files were people who were doomed to execution. There were names of pro-Soviet Journalists, with whom I was personally friendly.
– Pro Soviet?
– Yes, absolutely. They were idealistically minded leftist communists who had made several visits to the USSR; and yet the KGB decided, that come Revolution, or drastic changes in political structure of India – they will have to go.
– Why is that?
– Because they know too much. Simply, because, you see the USEFUL IDIOTS; the leftists who are idealistically believing in the beauty of Soviet or Communist or Socialist or whatever system; when they get disillusioned, they become the worst enemies. That’s why my KGB instructors specifically made the point, „never bother with leftists, forget about these political prostitutes – aim higher” this was my instruction. Try to get into, uh, large circulation, established conservative media. Reach filthy rich movie makers, intellectuals in so-called academic circles. Cynical, ego-centric people who can look into your eyes with angelic expression and tell you a lie. This are the most recruitable people; people who lack moral principals – who are either too greedy or too, uh, suffer from self-importance, uh, they feel that they matter a lot. Uh, these are the people who KGB wanted very much to recruit.
– But to eliminate the others; to execute the others, don’t they serve some purpose – wouldn’t they be the one’s to rely on?
– No they serve purpose only [up] to the stage of destabilization of a nation. For example, your leftists in [the] United States; all these professors and all these beautiful civil rights defenders. They are instrumental in the process of the subversion; only to destabilize a nation. When the job is completed, they are not needed anymore. They know too much. Some of them, when they get disillusioned – when they see that Marxist-Leninist come to power. Obviously they get offended; they think that THEY will come to power. That will never happen, of course; they will be lined up against the wall and shot.
But they may turn into the most bitter enemies of Marxist-Leninists when they come to power; and that’s what happened in Nicaragua. You remember most of these former Marxist-Leninists were either put to prison or one of them split and now he’s working against the Sandinistas It happened in Grenada when Maurice Bishop, he was already a Marxist – he was executed by the new Marxists who was more Marxist than this Marxist. Same happened in Afghanistan, when, uh, first there was Taraki he was killed by Amin, then Amin was killed by Karmal with the help of KGB. Same happened in Bangladesh where Mujibur Rahman, very pro-soviet leftist; was assassinated by his own Marxist-Leninist military comrades. It’s the same pattern everywhere. The moment they serve their purpose, all the useful idiots are either executed entirely; all the idealistically minded Marxists. Or exiled, or put in prisons like in Cuba many former Marxists are in Cuba, and in prison.
So basically America is stuck, with demoralization; and unless, even if you start right now this minute; you start educating new generation of Americans – it will still take you 15 to 20 years to turn the tide of uh, ideological perception of reality; uh back to normalcy and patriotism.
The result? The result you can see – most of the people who graduated in the 60’s, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, and educational systems. You are stuck with them. You can’t get rid of to them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern [alluding to Pavlov]. You can not change their mind even if you expose them to authentic information. Even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still can not change the basic perception and the logic of behavior. In other words [for] these people the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To rid society of these people you need another 15 or 20 years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and common sense people who would be acting in favor and in the interests of United States society.
– And yet these people who have been programmed and as you say [are] in place and who are favorable to an opening with the Soviet concept [meaning NEW WORLD ORDER] – these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country?
– Most of them, yes. Simply because the psychological shock when they will see in [the] future what the beautiful society of EQUALITY and social justice means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They will be very unhappy [and] frustrated people, and Marxist Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. Obviously they will join the [ranks] of dissenters; dissidents. Unlike the present  United States there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist-Leninist America. [Now] you can get popular like Daniel Ellsberg and filthy rich like Jane Fonda for being a dissident [and] for criticizing your Pentagon. In [the] future these people will simply be [he makes a squishy noise] squashed like cockroaches for criticizing the government. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful [and] noble ideas of EQUALITY. This they don’t understand and it will be the greatest shock for them, of course.
The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already for the last 25 years. Actually, it’s over fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans thanks to lack of moral standards. As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. Even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him the concentration camps…he will refuse to believe it…. until he is going to receive a kick in his fat bottom. When the military boot crashes – then he will understand. But not before that. That’s the tragedy of the situation of demoralization.
The next stage is destabilization… this time, subverter does not care about your ideas and the patterns of your consumption. Whether you eat junk food and get fat and flabby doesn’t matter any more. It only takes 2 to 5 years to destabilize a nation. This time what matters is essentials; economy, foreign relations, [and] defense systems. And you can see it quite clearly that in some… sensitive areas such as defense and [the] economy, the influence of Marxist-Leninist ideas in the United States is absolutely fantastic. I could never believe it 14 years ago when I landed in this part of the world that the process will go that fast.
The next stage of course is crisis, which may take only up to 6 weeks to bring a country to the verge of crisis. You can see it in Central America now; and after crisis, with the violent change of power structure and economy, you have the period of so called „normalization” [which] it may last indefinitely.
Normalization is a cynical expression, borrower from Soviet Propaganda. When the Soviet tanks moved into Czechoslovakia in 1968, comrade Brezhnev said „Now the situation in brotherly Czechoslovakia is normalized”. This is what will happen in [the] United States if you allow all the shmucks to bring the country to crisis. To promise people all kinds of goodies, and the paradise on Earth. Uh to destabilize your economy to eliminate the principal of free market competition; and to put a big brother government in Washington D.C.; with benevolent dictators like  Walter Mondale [2008 Obama] who will promise lots of things – Never mind whether the promises are fulfilled or not. He [the dictator] will go to Moscow to kiss the bottoms of a new generation of Soviet Assassins. Never mind [nothing to see here, move along], he will create false illusions that the situation is under control. Situation is NOT under control. Situation is disgustingly out of control. Most of the American politicians, media, and educational system train another generation of people who think they are living at the peacetime. False.
United States is in a state of war; undeclared, total war against the basic principles and foundations of this system. And the initiator of this war is not Comrade Andropov of course – it’s the system. However, ridiculous it may sound, [it is] the world Communist system, or the world Communist conspiracy. Whether I scare some people or not, I don’t give a hoot. If you’re not scared by now, nothing can scare you. You don’t have to be paranoid about it. What actually happens now; that unlike myself, you have literally several years to live on unless United States wake up. The time bomb is ticking. With every second the disaster is coming closer. Unlike myself, you will have nowhere to defect to, unless you want to live in Antarctica with penguins. This is it, this is the last country with freedom and possibility.
– Okay, so what do we do? What is your recommendation to the American people?
– Well, the immediate thing that comes to mind is, of course, there must be a very strong national effort to educate people in the spirit of REAL patriotism, number one. Number two, to explain [to] them the real danger of socialist, communist, welfare state, Big Brother government. If people fail to grasp the impending danger; nothing ever will help the United States. You may kiss goodbye your freedoms, including [sending] homosexuals to prison inmate. All this freedom will vanish in 5 seconds – including your precious lives.
The moment at least part of [the] United States population is convinced that the danger is real, they have to FORCE their government, and I’m not talking about sending letters, signing petitions, and all this beautiful, noble activity, I’m talking about FORCING [the] United States government to stop aiding Communism…